The Christian Thinker has just published a great interview with Dr. Robert Morey. The interview can be read here and discussed here.
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The Christian Thinker has just published a great interview with Dr. Robert Morey. The interview can be read here and discussed here.
November 26, 2008 at 7:18 am |
The fact you have interviewed this con-artist greatly lowers my opinion of your website and makes me wonder how much money you may have made as a possible Faith Defender Ministries LP partner in the sale of a church building to hotel developers.
November 26, 2008 at 8:14 am |
Is this website operated by “The Christian Thinker” or “Faith Defenders”? This website appears to be nothing but a sales site for Robert Morey books. I know nothing about “The Christian Thinker” but if it recommends Faith Defenders and Biblical Thought it cannot be all that great of a blog to read. As far as Alpha & Omega Ministries, and Team Pyro these are good blogs to read if you have the time and I rarely have the time.
November 27, 2008 at 3:07 pm |
Ron,
To your question “Is this website operated by “The Christian Thinker” or “Faith Defenders”?
Please see the About page which answers your questions.
http://worshipfulexplorer.wordpress.com/about/
November 27, 2008 at 3:14 pm |
To your other comment, I suggest you tread carefully in the Christian life when referring to other Christians. Your language may be taken as a false witness against Robert Morey. Calling a faithful Christian such as Robert Morey such names without any justification is unbiblical and I rebuke it in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ whom has been given all authority.
Your personal opinions are irrelevant to any subjects raised here, and I ask that you repent from your open sinful activities immediately, for your own good.
Please take heed, I urge you by the mercies of God.
November 27, 2008 at 3:39 pm |
I will not repent because you have not proven that anything I have stated is untrue.
http://moreylinks.blogspot.com/
Lots of evidence about Robert Morey does exist.
November 27, 2008 at 4:53 pm |
I will not repent as there is lots of evidence on this matter.
http://moreylinks.blogspot.com/
This evidence is documented by the above weblink.
November 27, 2008 at 11:26 pm |
The link you provided only contains single-witness accusations against a targeted person. This is not evidence. It does not meet the criteria of the Bible and should be dismissed as slander, hatred, the work of a busubody(ies), etc.
“I will not repent because you have not proven that anything I have stated is untrue.”
That won’t work, Ron. It is not up to the person receiving an accusation to prove that it is untrue. In order for a charge to be established it must have witnesses. Single-witness accusations are void, otherwise anyone can say anything about anyone at anytime. The burden is on the accuser to give biblical reasons why the receiver should even “entertain” accusations.
You were asked to repent, and I well understand that people “do not want” to repent, and for you to say “I will not repent’ is not a shock. The shock comes when one actually repents. Then the Lord is glorified.
Your “evidence” is invalid and as it stands you are bearing false witness, being a busybody, and unwilling to repent. Please do not take this lightly. Scripture alone is the final judge in cases like this. Compared to Scripture, your actions here certainly call for immediate repentance that you may receive restoration.
Note: This is the second admonishing to you already.
November 28, 2008 at 9:32 pm |
Restoration to what? Morey-ism or Christianity
The evidence is valid.
November 29, 2008 at 2:00 am |
1Timothy 5:9 says, “Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses.”
This explicit command condemns single witness accounts against an elder. Paul is using the ancient principle revealed by God to Moses. This Old Covenant principle is not abrogated by the New Covenant Law but rather is exemplified as seen in the many passages it appears in.
2 Corinthians 13:1 quotes, “EVERY FACT IS TO BE CONFIRMED BY THE TESTIMONY OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES.”
Paul’s final instructions to the church at Corinth make it clear that single witness accusations have no validity in the church.
Jesus quotes this too in Matthews account in 18:16, “BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.”
Jesus applies this to the “establishing” of a charge. If a charge is to be made it must have witnesses. If you have a conflict with a person you go to them directly. If they are not willing to hear you and repent, then you must bring witnesses with you to testify as eyewitnesses to the same event. Multiple single witnesses do not count as witnesses. The Bible mandates that a single event must have multiple witnesses. Jesus says, “take two or three with you to establish the charge.” If multiple single witnesses counted he could have said “go find others willing to testify with you to establish the charge.” But that would be inconsistent with the whole of Scripture. The Bible clearly commands that all charges be received only on the basis of two or three witnesses.
Deuteronomy 19:15 says: “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.”
Charges and accusations are a serious matter. But only on the multiplicity of eyewitness accounts to the same event can any charge or accusation even be given the time of day. If the biblical qualifications are not met, the charge or accusation MUST be dismissed. This is a non-negotiable matter of fact revealed in Scripture.
I repeat: THIS IS A NON-NEGOTIABLE MATTER OF FACT REVEALED IN SCRIPTURE.
Since your “evidence” is a compilation of erroneous accusations that do not meet the biblical qualifications, I suggest you look to Scripture to see what you are to do in such as case. My summary of what it says, and please check for yourself, is that you are to avoid it, do not take any part in it, dismiss it, and have nothing to do with those that perpetuate it.
November 29, 2008 at 7:08 am |
There has been more than two witnesses and there is the matter of the witness of a Texas Baptist Church. I have no time to deal with your cultic games.
November 29, 2008 at 2:24 pm |
Unfortunately, for you, the point at which you first received the accusations, they were not presented according to the biblical standards.
There is no Texas Baptist Church witness. You are a person misled.
You failed to shun the slander on the basis that it fails to meet the biblical criteria, and instead became given over to it and now you are deep in sin.
You have been shown your error from Scripture and asked to repent.
You have admitted that you will not repent.
What you cannot say at this point is that you didn’t know you were wrong. You know you are wrong and deep in sin. What you must say is why you went ahead and continued to do what you knew was wrong; why you knew what was forbidden in Scripture and why you went ahead and continued in it anyway.
November 29, 2008 at 3:58 pm |
There are several witnesses that there is a Texas Baptist church and even documentation on this matter. Just because you say there is no Texas Baptist church doesn’t make it true. You have limited your charge against me in a way that is not Biblical since there is really a Texas Baptist church involved in this matter. If I am in error you are required to take it before a real New Testament church and that church not you will judge if I am in error or not. You have no Biblical authority to say that I am in sin without a church backing you up.
November 29, 2008 at 5:12 pm |
I am reading the 81 page document from FIRE and I will have to agree so far that 1) FIRE shouldnt have been involved and 2) most of the evidence (that I have read so far) is based on single witnesses.
until bitterness and anger is repented of this will never be resolved.
I suggest the accuseers go to Faith Community in PERSON and confront in a manner pleasing to God, and go from there.
November 29, 2008 at 8:57 pm |
Ron,
1. Don’t try to switch the issue and make it seem like I am saying that there isn’t a Texas Baptist church in existence. You have publicly charged Robert Morey as a “con artist” yet you have not been conned by him. You do not have witnesses to support your claim, and even if all you’re doing is repeating another person’s claim that he is, since their claims are invalid according to the written word of God, then you become a gossiper and a busybody – 2 things severely condemned in Scripture and highly punishable by God.
2. You say: “If I am in error you are required to take it before a real New Testament church and that church not you will judge if I am in error or not.” Where do you get the idea that I am required to do this? If you feel you have Scriptural support, now would be a good time to offer it.
3. You also said: “You have no Biblical authority to say that I am in sin without a church backing you up.” Where does this idea come from? I have basically memorized the entire New Testament and I have no idea of even possible passages that you may be interpreting incorrectly to conclude as such. Again, if you feel you have Scriptural support now would be a really good time to offer it before you gain a reputation for yourself as one who arbitrarily and autonomously makes rules for Christian ethics.
Please provide the name, location, and contact info of the church to which you are a member in good standing of.
November 29, 2008 at 9:01 pm |
To Travis,
You have shown wisdom in the way you are dealing with this.
May the Lord continue to bless you!
November 30, 2008 at 12:58 am |
I have to disagree with Travis on the F.I.R.E matter as it is my understanding that F.I.R.E. had the right to do what they did. I agree with their decision.
Since I am not a member of Faith Community Church of Orange County and I agree with the findings of F.I.R,E. ; do you seriously expect me to desire to speak with Robert Morey on this matter. Robert Morey refused to discuss the matter with F.I.R.E so why would he desire to discuss the matter with me. It was Travis that raised the F.I.R.E. matter not me.
Having recently moved into Southern California; I have yet to find a church in which I will become a member. I do take membership in a church seriously and I do not desire to make a quick decision to join a church anymore than a quick decision to marry a woman. Perhaps I am spoiled having attended John Piper’s church while in the Minneapolis area.
I believe it is in Mathew where it states that if you have found a brother in sin, you are to discuss the matter with him and if he will not repent; then you are to tell the church and they will review and pass judgment. Paul has a similar supporting statement which I cannot recall where it is at the moment but it has to do with two or more being together.
Since I agree with both Christ Memorial Baptist Church and F.I.R.E ; I see no reason to repent and I disagree with you as I see sufficient supporting documentation and witnesses. Perhaps your real issue is with F.I.R.E and Christ Memorial Baptist Church so you should discuss the matter with them. If they repent, then I will reconsider the matter.
Technically Robert Morey per the New Testament should not be an elder, deacon, or pastor. I am sure you will disagree on that point since you disagree on the validity of the evidence related to this matter. I agree with Greg Bahnsen and others that church punishment is to restore a member to a church in good standing rather than a permanent termination of the person such as what appears to be common to Faith Community Church of Orange County. If a member of Faith Community Church of Orange County is treated the way reported by those that have been tossed out of the church; then how can I a non-member expect better treatment? That is why I clearly say I will listen to what a true Reformed church has to say on the matter, but not Faith Community Church of Orange County.
I see this going no where and it appears pointless. I have a better solution. I will post no more on the matter for awhile as I seek the guidance of persons I trust on this matter. I will show them what you have posted on this matter and see if they recommend that I repent.
If you desire to continue to rebuke me …. that is your right but it means nothing to me because I do not trust you and I believe your guidance on this matter is worthless.
November 30, 2008 at 12:59 pm |
Another thing on the issue of the money, why doesnt the accusers take him to court and have it decided there?
rzhblog,
what do you think should be done here with this issue? if they kicked people out of the church how can they be restored? shouldnt they go to the church and repent?
January 5, 2009 at 9:52 pm |
Dr. Morey towers above his accusers in every way. I have never met the man nor even heard of him before tonight, just happened to encounter the castigations of him on line while doing some unrelated internet research. But I can easily see what the problem is here, being versed in psychology and pastoral matters. JEALOUSY, EGO, SIN, PRIDE, and Satanic activity on the part of his accusers. It is very apparent in the dialogue which is generated by the Holy Spirit and which by the flesh or even by the devil. Those supposed Church leaders are very compromised and need to clean up their acts or they will be judged along with those who set themselves up to judge those greater than themselves. Dr. Morey is not perfect, nor is any man but Christ, but he surely has honored the Lord. To discount that and make a political mudpie is to dishonor God who has worked through Dr. Morey for many years in many ways.
January 5, 2009 at 10:03 pm |
Additionally, the accusations against the pastor sound like they’re coming from people who are mentally disturbed and emotionallystunted. It’s embarrassingly petty and narcissistic to complain that a minister didn’t cater to each person’s psychic labyrinth and left-over emotional milieu enough to be considered acceptable for ministry. Frankly, it sounds like those folks need to be seeing Christian therapists so they can be made whole and stop expecting the man of God to be God.
January 6, 2009 at 11:34 pm |
Dear Sevi,
I believe you have discerned the situation correctly. Praise God for giving his children opened-eyes!
January 28, 2009 at 5:45 pm |
I heard there was an uproar about Dr Robert Morey, so I Googled and found this blog. I am amazed at what some are saying about Dr Morey.
Not that what I am about to say has any bearing whatsoever on the facts of the alleged scandal, but I know Dr Morey personally, as I attended church at Faith Community in Irvine, CA for about 6 months, several years ago. (I left only because the drive was so distant). I know him to be a man of highest integrity. His weakest point is his strongest point in that he is a truth-seeker to the Nth degree. At 62 years of age with 35 years in business I can recognize a genius when I spend time with one. Sometimes people do not like him because they realize he is the smartest man in the room. (I think they call that jealousy.) Other times (when going toe-to-toe) he steps on toes in the process of defending the truth against those who refuse to see that truth, or fight against it – although those in opposition claim it is Dr Morey’s truth, and not THE truth – but isn’t that the way it has been since Adam ate the forbidden fruit?
I empirically observed that Dr Morey works for the glory of God. I found him to be a Christian man of highest caliber. We may never know what really happened. I suspect he is being attacked for church “political” reasons, and I refuse to believe any of this “hogwash” without valid Biblical procedure in presenting substantive acquisitions.
Sevi Regis, Travis, worshipfulexplorer, you are to be commended for your contribution about what Scripture says on the matter. You are ON-POINT. Gossip is a TERRIBLE thing, and Scripture teaches us that God hates it. (Proverbs 20:19, 2 Corinthians 12:20-21, 2 Timothy 3:2-4). This is a very good example “why” He hates it, as it is a tool of Satan used to destroy good men/women.
January 30, 2009 at 4:16 pm |
BeExegetical,
Since many of Morey’s accusers either sat under his teaching directly or benefited via means of his audio, video, and book ministry, a necessary distinction must be drawn between the knowledge of what is doctrinally and morally good and right, and the “power” to carry out the works of obedience that flow from such a knowledge of the truth.
I am joyful to see that you’ve found value in the contributions in this post from people that have demonstrated obedience to the Lordship of Christ and have bowed to the authority of Scripture. Praise God that not all of Morey’s pupils (former & current) have joined the ranks of Satan and so willingly offered themselves as his servants to carry on evil deeds.
Remain steadfast and immovable brother whoever you are.